Ep 202: Who is Forming Your Child’s Worldview and What You Can Do About It, w/Dr. George Barna, Pt.2
Today I welcome back to the show Dr. George Barna. Dr Barna is the author of more than 60 books, including numerous award-winners and New York Times best sellers. In fact, Dr. Barna has been referred to as the most quoted person in the church today. If you haven’t listened to EP201, pause this and listen to that first. Today I back our conversation up a minute or two to remind us where we left off, and then Dr. Barna explains the role media takes in shaping the worldview of our children and what we can do about it. And buckle up, mamas, because Dr. Barna gives us some straight talk and some tough love–he does not mince words and I’m here for it. OK, with that let’s dive back in to Part 2 of my conversation with Dr. George Barna.
For a transcript of our entire conversation, please scroll to the bottom of this post.
We discuss
- The role of media in our children’s lives and practical ways parents can combat the media their kids are taking in.
- How “worldview” is portrayed in popular kids’ shows
- How we measure spiritual growth/development in our kids
- Why we are to be disciples who make disciples–especially in our kids.
- The best way to describe a disciple.
- Strategies parents can use to disciple their children
- Hope for parents with older children
- What is on Dr. Barna’s To-Don’t List
- Encouragement for overwhelmed moms
More about Dr. Barna:
Dr. George Barna has sold more books based on survey research related to matters of faith than any author in American history.
George Barna is a professor at Arizona Christian University and Director of Research at the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University, focusing on worldview assessment and development, and cultural transformation. He is also the Senior Research Fellow at Family Research Council’s Center for Biblical Worldview. He was the founder of The Barna Group (which he sold in 2009), the Barna Institute, the American Culture and Faith Institute, and Metaformation. Through these entities, he has conducted groundbreaking research on worldview, cultural transformation, ministry applications, spiritual development, and politics. He has provided research and strategy for several hundred parachurch ministries, thousands of Christian churches, the U.S. military and Fortune 500 companies.
Having begun his research career in the political arena, he has provided polling for numerous political campaigns and has provided polling and strategy to four presidential candidates. He has also served on multiple boards of directors and advisory boards. Raising Spiritual Champions is the 60th book that Barna has authored or co-authored. His books have addressed social and religious trends, worldview, leadership, spiritual development, church dynamics, and cultural transformation. They include New York Times and Amazon bestsellers and several award-winning books. His books have been translated into more than a dozen foreign languages. He is a frequent speaker at events throughout the world, having spoken at more than a thousand events during the course of his career, including events in 14 different countries.
Prior to joining the faculty of ACU, Barna taught at several universities and seminaries, served as the teaching pastor of a large, multi-ethnic church, pastored a house church, and helped to start several churches. He has also served as an elder in several congregations. After graduating summa cum laude from Boston College, Barna earned two master’s degrees from Rutgers University and received a doctorate from Dallas Baptist University. Barna and his wife, Nancy, attended high school, college, and graduate school together before marrying in the Princeton University Chapel in 1978. They have three adopted daughters and three grandchildren and currently live on the central California coast and in the Phoenix area. He enjoys spending time with his grandchildren, relaxing at the beach or on a cruise, watching the NY Yankees, playing bass guitar and listening to the blues, hanging out with his blind dog, Ray Charles, visiting comedy clubs or watching comedy specials, and reading novels.
LINKS (Some may be affiliates)
Dr. George Barna Links
*Raising Spiritual Champions: Nurturing Your Child’s Heart, Mind and Soul
Author of 60 books, below is a sampling of recent and bestselling titles.
*Transforming Children into Spiritual Champions
Website:
Cultural Research Center – Arizona Christian University
https://culturalresearchcenter.com
Facebook:
Full Report:
Research – Arizona Christian University
More Links!
Keep up with me outside the podcast: Subscribe to Behind the Balance
Click HERE for a directory of podcast episodes by TOPIC
Are you a female Christian writer who wants to grow and nurture your audience without social media?
Check out Writing Off Social: The Podcast
Or download my free resource: 27 Real Ways to Grow Your Audience Outside of Social Media
To listen to the podcasts where I’ve appeared as a guest, visit my PR + Media Page
Buy Mom, You’re Amazing! And Other Things I Want to Tell You on Amazon
Is the Voice in My Head God or Just Me? is available on Amazon
Finding Your Balance is available on Amazon
If you need a book or challenge of mine and cannot afford it, please email me at thescooponbalance@gmail.com for a free digital copy or a 100% off coupon. No strings attached.
Blog post and graphics by Sophia Lebano
Have a question or a comment?
Leave a comment below or email me at thescooponbalance@gmail.com or join Behind the Balance
I am no longer active on social media.
Transcript EP201 + 202:
Sandy Cooper
Ok Dr George Barna welcome to the balanced momcast. Oh it’s good to be with you too. It is such an honor um to speak with you today I am so excited about our conversation I told you that before we hit record.
00:03.51
George Barna
Thanks Andy going to be with you.
00:15.54
Sandy Cooper
Um, but before we get started. Can you just tell everybody who you are and what you do.
00:20.58
George Barna
Yeah, ah this part is so much harder for me than describing all the research I do I’m a researcher I’m a writer I’m teacher dad husband you know a lot of different roles here. But.
00:25.34
Sandy Cooper
Um, that’s right.
00:33.84
Sandy Cooper
Her.
00:37.53
George Barna
Yeah I mean what I believe god called and gifted me to do is to try to figure out what’s going on in our culture. How does it relate to people’s faith and how can we get people deeper in their faith with Christ so that they can be agents of transformation in the culture. So given that. Ah.
00:52.62
Sandy Cooper
House.
00:56.74
George Barna
More than forty years ago I started doing research on these things and over the course of time we’ve learned a lot and we’ve been shocked a lot and continue to be shocked particularly these days at the direction. The culture has taken. But yeah, my my whole role here is to try to get people.
01:12.30
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
01:15.23
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
01:15.37
George Barna
To be disciples of Jesus and so whatever it takes whatever information I can bring to the table to cause us to stop and think and pray and then do what god’s called us to do if the research that I’ve talked about motivated people to do it I’m doing my job.
01:26.56
Sandy Cooper
Um.
01:31.29
Sandy Cooper
Yes, well I want to personally thank thank you for the research that you have done because I know that personally I have heard multiple times from our church pulpit or in a book I’ve read or on a radio program according to Barna and and so every time I told someone what. Who I was talking to today I’d say you know when they say according to Barna Guess who I’m talking to you like he’s going to be on my podcast. So I I really am so thankful for the work you’ve done and I am so excited to talk to you today and I told you before we hit record that I’m confessing I’m normally not nervous on my own podcast. But. I’m a little nervous because you have done just so many amazing things and um and contributed to so much of what we now know and um and you’re here to talk about your newest book which is called raising spiritual champions nurturing your child’s heart mind and soul. And I have read this book. It is fantastic and you are speaking right now primarily to Christian moms with kids still in the home and can you just tell them all why we need this book.
02:39.29
George Barna
Well sure I mean in doing the research we did 7 new research projects as the background for this book when I write books I figure nobody cares or should care about my opinions or my experiences.
02:48.92
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
02:56.97
George Barna
What they want to know is something that’s factual something that’s real so we did these 7 different projects and one of the things that became evident after doing all that is you know what parents for all of our faults across the board generally speaking. We love our kids.
03:01.18
Sandy Cooper
Um.
03:16.10
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
03:16.50
George Barna
And so that’s really not the issue. The issue is we’re going to invest time and money and energy in trying to help our kids become something and so the reason to listen to me is because what I did was I talked to parents.
03:28.96
Sandy Cooper
Um.
03:33.88
George Barna
Across the country including a separate project of those who have actually raised children who when they became adults they are now fervent disciples of Jesus Christ now that’s not the norm.
03:47.60
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? no.
03:49.51
George Barna
But what we had the opportunity to do is to talk to those kids who are now adults say what did your parents do because you’re abnormal You love Genius Most of your peers don’t you do and you’re living it out. What did they do for you to get you to this place at the end of the interview. We asked them hey if your parents are alive. Would you mind if we talk to them.
03:54.37
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, right? um.
04:09.42
George Barna
You know, could you give us a context So then we did that then we compared the answers. So we know what it is that effective parents are doing. We know what it is that ineffective parents are doing and we know what churches are doing and we did the same kind of thing there those that are effective.
04:09.58
Sandy Cooper
Um.
04:27.45
George Barna
In working with children those that aren’t effective in working with children. So we’ve got all these points of comparison. What I want to do is make your parenting experience a success and by that what I mean is that not simply your child’s going to be safe. They’re going to be happy.
04:31.90
Sandy Cooper
Um, no.
04:38.90
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
04:45.55
George Barna
They’re going to be well educatated. They’re going to be a star athlete to marry the homecoming queen that to me has nothing to do with success success as we’ll probably talk about at some other point in the interview is consistent obedience to god.
04:48.52
Sandy Cooper
Um, me.
04:57.59
Sandy Cooper
Yes, um.
05:01.44
George Barna
And so if you want your children to grow up to be human beings who regardless of their age regardless of their station in life wind up being consistently obedient to God or as I’ll talk about in relation to worldview.
05:10.10
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
05:16.85
George Barna
People who are going to live like Jesus because they think like Jesus then then I’m the guy. Okay, yeah, and that’s why I’m here you know I want to help you understand these things and and some of it doesn’t come naturally and so we’ve got to reposition our minds and our hearts and our souls.
05:19.54
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
05:36.47
George Barna
To be aligned with God in this venture. So hopefully I’ll be able to to help with all of that.
Sandy Cooper
So you you talked about all the research you did in this book and so I I told you before we hit record. Um that usually when I have someone an author on the podcast I will. Read the whole book I’ll pull out a couple quotable things and kind of build my interview based on some a couple things that stood out to me and so that was my plan when I opened up your book and I started Well first I I started reading the digital copy that was sent to me and and I was. I was in the introduction and I had copied and pasted almost the entire introduction into my notes app and I I know I was like well those were all the things that I was going to plan to talk to you about and then I realized I haven’t even gotten a chapter one yet.
07:17.30
George Barna
We’re going to 3 for plagiarism. Okay, yeah, copyright infring.
07:28.86
Sandy Cooper
and and I’m already going to have a 5 hour interview with this man. So then I decide I backed up and I was like ok I just need to read the whole book and then I need to like back way way up and let you talk about more of the big concepts that.
07:31.86
George Barna
Express this.
07:44.36
Sandy Cooper
Of of the book rather than like every single quotable thing which is basically the whole book. So so we are on this podcast right now we are in the middle of a series on teaching kids a biblical worldview and so this is perfect timing for you to be on.
07:54.90
George Barna
Me.
08:00.21
Sandy Cooper
Um, and so I’m just curious how I think you may have already mentioned this but I just want to say for the purpose of um, defining worldview I’m curious how you would define a biblical worldview.
08:09.10
George Barna
Yeah, well you know and it’s funny because you know we started the cultural research center and our primary thing to do is to study worldview so we’ve been looking at this for years now and what I find is when I talk to people about worldview number 1 they don’t know what it is.
08:20.88
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
08:25.97
Sandy Cooper
Sure.
08:28.64
George Barna
Number 2 even though they don’t know what it is they say they have a biblical worldview and number 3 I find that if I start to talk to them about it as it being a philosophy of life then they relax a little bit so it doesn’t sound like such an ivory ivory tower.
08:31.28
Sandy Cooper
Right.
08:44.12
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
08:48.38
Sandy Cooper
For her.
08:48.52
George Barna
Scholarly scholarly kind of term so that’s all we’re talking about here is your intellectual emotional and spiritual filter that you use to understand experience interpret and respond to life.
08:57.22
Sandy Cooper
Her.
09:05.18
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
09:05.66
George Barna
Everybody has a worldview you need a worldview to get through the day because your worldview is the filter that enables you to make every decision that you make we make hundreds of decisions every single day and if we didn’t have that kind of a filter. We’d be in agony.
09:08.30
Sandy Cooper
Yeah, yeah.
09:14.00
Sandy Cooper
Right.
09:25.27
George Barna
All the time because we just be making random choices and we’d be in conflict with ourselves all the time because we’d make 1 choice then we make the next choice. Oh wait a minute that doesn’t make sense because I did this other thing. So.
09:37.00
Sandy Cooper
Right.
09:39.91
George Barna
Developed this way of trying to figure out how can I at least try to be consistent with myself and that’s what our worldview is now there are a number of different life philosophies that have been expounded on that have been described over the course of time by Philosophers and social scientists and whatnot.
09:43.80
Sandy Cooper
Right.
09:51.15
Sandy Cooper
Um, president.
09:59.35
George Barna
Theologians to try to help us have a worldview that’s internally consistent but the problem is in America today because the family has pretty much fallen apart parents don’t teach worldview to their kids.
09:59.60
Sandy Cooper
Um, have a.
10:09.49
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
10:15.35
George Barna
And so that worldview is developed by default what happens is that children and I mention children because that’s when we develop our worldview. It’s almost fully formed by the age of 13 so children are trying to figure out.
10:18.71
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
10:29.52
Sandy Cooper
Um, ah.
10:34.18
George Barna
How to make good decisions and they’ve got all kinds of choices to make including many of the big questions in life which is what a worldview addresses am I Why am I here. How did I get here where am I going Why am I going there. How should I get there most effectively what kind of an impact am I going to make.
10:41.29
Sandy Cooper
Her her.
10:53.29
George Barna
What kind of a difference. Do I want to make you know all these kinds of things more so kids are are grasping at information that will help them make sense of this life that they’re trying to live effectively and the problem is because nobody’s helped them to think clearly.
10:58.16
Sandy Cooper
Um.
11:05.55
Sandy Cooper
Right.
11:12.41
George Barna
And consistently and strategically they’re acting in the moment and so they buy into points of view that they embrace as part of their worldview that are popular or that are common or that are comfortable.
11:13.44
Sandy Cooper
And.
11:23.57
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? yeah.
11:28.68
George Barna
And yet many of those things are actually at odds with some of the other points of view that they’re going to wind up embracing and so one of the things that we found in our research is that the prevailing worldview in America is what’s called syncretism which means yes syncretism.
11:44.77
Sandy Cooper
Syncretism. Yeah, what does that mean.
11:47.91
George Barna
Is where rather than buying into a single coherent comprehensive worldview like the biblical worldview or sometimes that’s called Biblical Theism or postmodernism or secular humanism or Easter mysticism or nihilism I mean there are dozens of them.
11:56.95
Sandy Cooper
Um, right.
12:06.89
George Barna
What happens is kids get exposed to messages representing each of these different worldviews and and they like a few postmodern perspectives they like a few secular humanist perspectives they like a few of the biblical worldview perspectives.
12:13.44
Sandy Cooper
Right.
12:26.19
George Barna
And they go through all these things so they start mixing and matching all these competing ideas things that actually do cause internal conflict things that don’t make sense when you lay it all out in 1 place but that’s how most americans think.
12:33.87
Sandy Cooper
Um.
12:39.40
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? yes.
12:43.47
George Barna
So Syncretism is what drives us Forward Syncretism is what’s causing the problems that we have in our culture today.
12:47.95
Sandy Cooper
Yes, well let’s go back then and talk about you talk about the 7 cornerstones of a biblical worldview. So if we are going to differentiate a biblical worldview or define a ah biblical worldview for our listeners. Um, because I will I will agree that there are. Most of the people that I talk to aren’t quite sure what we even are talking about when we say a biblical worldview. Um, so why don’t you lay out for us what the 7 cornerstones are that differentiate it from syncretism or postmodernism or secular humanism. All those other things that you mentioned.
13:12.43
George Barna
Um.
13:21.12
George Barna
Yeah, and and let me say right off the bat that I’ll talk about the 7 cornerstones because they’re very important but they’re kind of a starting point for developing a biblical worldview. They’re great foundation. They are not a biblical worldview in in its totality or in all fullness.
13:28.93
Sandy Cooper
Right.
13:37.39
Sandy Cooper
Okay.
13:40.94
George Barna
But it’s a good foundation. A good structure to build on. How do I know that because in doing the research with people what I discovered is that if you believe all 7 of these very basic biblical beliefs. It turns out you’ve got about an 83% probability
13:56.43
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
14:00.11
George Barna
Then going on and developing a full biblical worldview. But if you reject even 1 of these 7 cornerstones then you’ve only got a 2% probability of developing a biblical worldview so each of these is terribly important in its own right? and you’ll see why as I describe them.
14:13.66
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, okay.
14:19.60
George Barna
And and don’t laugh when you hear them because you say are you kidding me? This is Sunday school one one which it kind of is but what that said to me is I guess we’re not attending Sunday school anymore or when we did we didn’t pay attention or they weren’t teaching the right stuff all of which are possibilities. So.
14:22.75
Sandy Cooper
Her The her. Um, right? right? Yes, yeah.
14:37.84
George Barna
What what are the 7 cornerstones start out with god always start with god and so it’s not just knowing that he exists that he’s real. Ah, but but also knowing that some of his characteristics his attributes are that he knows everything.
14:56.79
Sandy Cooper
Um.
14:56.91
George Barna
He’s all powerful. He loves us. He created us. He wants to be involved in our lives. He’s just he’s creative. You know all of these kinds of attributes of God are very important because one of the things that that.
15:12.75
Sandy Cooper
Um, ah.
15:15.90
George Barna
Then this sets up a conflict with is the prevailing notion with adults under 40 in America who believe that there is no god they’re in charge we can talk about that later on. But so so you got to have a strong starting point knowing that god exists knowing something about him is important.
15:22.96
Sandy Cooper
Right? right? Sure yeah. Yes.
15:34.17
George Barna
But then the second cornerstone is knowing that you’re a sinner I’m a sinner every human being on the face of the earth who’s ever lived and ever will live is a sinner. We’re born into that and sin has consequences and so then the third cornerstone is.
15:50.58
Sandy Cooper
Um.
15:53.36
George Barna
The only way around those negative consequences of Sin Sin being those things that we do that breaks God’s heart and that ruptures our relationship with him. Well if we want to maintain that relationship if we want to be in his good graces.
16:02.39
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
16:11.16
George Barna
If we want to be able to move forward with him helping us and him empowering us then we’ve got to do something about that and the third cornerstone tells us the only way you can get around your sin problem is by acknowledging that you’re a sinner asking Jesus Christ to forgive you. For the sins that you’ve committed and engaging in repentance. Genuine repentance and and I know we talk a lot about in christian churches about. Oh yeah, say the prayer of salvation have Jesus as you say? Yeah, okay, but we don’t talk very much about repentance.
16:36.89
Sandy Cooper
Um, yep.
16:46.71
Sandy Cooper
Right.
16:49.25
George Barna
Which is willingly voluntarily forcefully changing your mind and your heart so that you are doing everything in your power and through the power of the holy spirit to reject temptations and to reject Sin so that you can be.
17:04.39
Sandy Cooper
Right? right.
17:07.84
George Barna
Living with Christ fourth thing tells us how that works and that’s knowing that the bible is god’s word. It’s reliable. It’s relevant and it’s true and so.
17:15.12
Sandy Cooper
Of her. Never.
17:22.72
George Barna
Why did God give us that bible because he wants us to succeed in life but he knows that because we’re sinners. Our tendency is going to follow our own ways and so he’s shown us his ways. So it’s incredibly important that we pay attention to what’s in the bible that we not just read it.
17:26.31
Sandy Cooper
Right. Who.
17:41.94
George Barna
Not just listen to somebody else reading it but we study it we dive into it. It is our guidebook for life. The fifth cornerstone builds on that and it says that not only does the bible have good information. It has useful life principles.
17:49.17
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? um.
18:01.24
George Barna
The bible gives us absolute moral truths truth is not what you decide it is truth is not what you feel it should be truth is not dictated by your circumstances or your opportunities truth.
18:02.79
Sandy Cooper
From her.
18:15.59
Sandy Cooper
Rape.
18:18.62
George Barna
Is dictated by God because he is truth That’s one of the things the bible teaches us he is truth He’s the embodiment of it and he went to the trouble to give it to us in written form. He codified it for us so that we would know the things that never change.
18:36.14
Sandy Cooper
Okay, for her.
18:37.67
George Barna
Like god himself and because god doesn’t change truth doesn’t change and he’s shown us what those are so we need to make sure that we’re in harmony with those sixth cornerstone is understanding therefore what success in life is how would we know what success is.
18:42.54
Sandy Cooper
Right.
18:52.20
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
18:56.29
George Barna
Most Americans say Well, it’s how much money you make what kind of house you live in the car you drive the spouse you married school you graduated from how famous you are none of that it turns out matters whatsoever What the bible tells us because God gave this to us.
19:01.38
Sandy Cooper
Sure.
19:13.12
George Barna
Is that success is consistent obedience to God and so recognizing that the thing that we need to measure ourself against every day is what are the truths of God for my life and did I live in Harmony with those and then the final cornerstone.
19:14.60
Sandy Cooper
Right.
19:31.26
George Barna
Is understanding why he put us here and that’s that our purpose is to know love and serve god with all our heart mind strength and soul and so you look at those 7 things you say wow could it get any more basic I don’t think so but but you know what in America today.
19:32.27
Sandy Cooper
Right.
19:37.88
Sandy Cooper
Right.
19:46.36
Sandy Cooper
Um I don’t think so.
19:50.60
George Barna
2% of millennials. 2% of the parents of children under the age of 13 have a biblical worldview and it’s because most of them have rejected 1 or more on average. It’s about 4 of those cornerstones that they’ve rejected.
19:58.71
Sandy Cooper
Right.
20:09.90
George Barna
And you can’t get to God when you reject his truth.
20:12.41
Sandy Cooper
Well, you know you you started that list by saying you’re probably going to laugh at this because it’s so basic and when you got to the very first one that said that god exists and that he’s real and he’s all knowing and all powerful and. And that he loves us and he wants to be involved in our lives and I immediately thought of multiple conversations I’ve had with multiple people who are supposedly christians who reject at 1 at least 1 component of just the very first one and then you went on to talk about how you know. The second corner stone being that we are sinners and that sin has consequence well I have I have kids in their twenty s and I can tell you that that’s not what they’re thinking right now I mean that they they are hearing and in communicating. That people are basically good and you know and and so like as you were going down each thing I was thinking you know when I I remember reading in your introduction some of those stats which were just so eye-opening about you know the 2% of people and millennials hold ah A. Christian worldview and I was stunned by that. But then when you when you break it down like that I think no, that makes that is consistent with my experience that is consistent with the people that I come in contact with.
21:42.13
Sandy Cooper
I Would agree I mean that that sounds that it’s not it’s shocking. But then it’s it’s consistent. So thank you for defining it and um and thank you for starting there because it’s a good ah springboard for for what we’re going to talk about So so yes.
21:58.85
George Barna
Well and if I could Sandy just before you go. But and I’m sorry I did this all the time because there’s just so much to all of this that you lost over you know, um, people don’t understand the connections. So I just want to make one connection that I should have made I didn’t and that’s that.
22:01.39
Sandy Cooper
Absolutely no so much? yep.
22:14.30
George Barna
What we just talked about are a set of beliefs but beliefs alone. Don’t get you to where you need to be what you’ve got to do is take those beliefs and translate it into a lifestyle. So each of those 7 cornerstones is a critical belief but it’s critical in that.
22:15.26
Sandy Cooper
Ha ha.
22:25.55
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
22:34.19
George Barna
If you actually believe those things it’s going to change your behavior and that’s what a biblical worldview is all about we hear worldview and we think oh it’s just about what you believe? No it’s it’s about both but see we do what we really believe.
22:38.11
Sandy Cooper
Um, right.
22:45.48
Sandy Cooper
Right.
22:52.96
Sandy Cooper
That’s right.
22:53.58
George Barna
And so having the right beliefs is critical because then it will enable you to live the right way and our goal here. Ultimately, let’s go back to what we first said is we want to be disciples of Jesus so what does a worldview have to do with that what you’re trying to do is think like Jesus.
23:05.28
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, yeah, yes.
23:13.38
George Barna
So that you can live like Jesus and that’s what a biblical worldview enables you to do and by the way I never call it a christian worldview because I found that most americans say they have a christian worldview and so I did some research on that. Oh great, what does that mean to you and what we found out is they mean? oh.
23:20.80
Sandy Cooper
Right.
23:33.22
George Barna
I’m a good person I’m trying hard and I have good intentions That’s a Christian It’s like what I must have been reading the wrong bible I Don’t think that is what a Christian is so that’s why I call it a biblical worldview because we need to drive them back to God’s word it turns out from our research that most of those people who say.
23:38.50
Sandy Cooper
Um, Wow Yeah right.
23:50.20
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
23:52.93
George Barna
They have a Christian worldview. Don’t read the bible. Well, it’s no wonder they have a Christian worldview and not a biblical worldview.
23:57.80
Sandy Cooper
Um, that’s right? No thank you for drawing that distinction and thank you for connecting the dots between having you know these these 7 um foundational beliefs and and. But then they don’t mean anything unless you’re living it out. So um, yeah I I really appreciate that? Um, so why do most americans lack a coherent worldview and you know how have we? how why is it 2% why is it why how have we gotten so far off track like can we talk about that.
24:32.33
George Barna
Sure yeah, and it’s it’s been so disturbing and distressing to me for a long period of time because I’ve been measuring this for about 30 years now and consistently over those 3 decades the national incidence of biblical worldview has been on the decline.
24:41.91
Sandy Cooper
Um, earth.
24:49.66
Sandy Cooper
Um.
24:49.73
George Barna
And so why is that it’s because biblically parents have the primary responsibility to raise their children to be a disciple and so that also means that biblically parents have the biblical responsibility to develop the worldview of their children.
24:56.96
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
25:07.77
George Barna
Go back to deuteronomy six go into a bunch of verses in Proverbs you know some of Paul’s teachings you know and so there’s an abundance of scriptural evidence that yeah, that’s how it’s supposed to work. But then when we actually study what’s happening in families. What I found is that there’s this parenting approach.
25:10.11
Sandy Cooper
Um, sure.
25:27.30
George Barna
That we take in America called outsourcing at least that’s what I call it and the idea is that parents are very busy. They’re very distracted. They’re juggling a lot and one of the things they’re juggling is trying to raise their kids. Well they love their kids like I said before so they want to do right by them.
25:30.44
Sandy Cooper
Um.
25:43.56
Sandy Cooper
Um, sure.
25:47.30
George Barna
So they’ve sat back and they thought about it and they said you know the only way that I can actually do this because I love my kids. So so much I’ll go out and I’ll hire the best people I can and I’ll let them raise my children in the different areas that really matter to me and so.
26:01.90
Sandy Cooper
Right.
26:04.14
George Barna
I’m going to hire tutors for their education I’m going to hire personal coaches for their sports I’m going to hire you know, experts at all these different dimensions of their life and I’m going to drop them off a church where they’ve got the religious experts and I’ll let them deal with that spiritual angle of things. Well.
26:11.26
Sandy Cooper
Sure.
26:20.20
Sandy Cooper
Right.
26:22.85
George Barna
That doesn’t work because what we found is when you outsource parenting what you’re doing is you’re inviting the world to raise your children now. What do we know about the world at least american culture. It is not biblical. It is not Christian and so as you entrust your children.
26:32.19
Sandy Cooper
Hearst. Right? no.
26:42.48
George Barna
To these experts that you’re paying to basically raise your children because you’re juggling a lot of other things. You’ve got a job. You’ve got friends. You’ve got hobbies. You’ve got you know service activities. You’ve got all these other things that you’re engaged in and you’re too busy. You’re too tired. You’re overwhelmed I think I heard that somewhere.
26:50.42
Sandy Cooper
Um, now.
26:54.93
Sandy Cooper
Sure.
27:02.28
George Barna
Ah, you know you don’t know how to manage it and you figure this is the way to do it I’ll outsource. Well that’s a failure strategy because what happens is our children then are exposed to people who are not going to teach them and hold them accountable to a biblical worldview.
27:02.34
Sandy Cooper
Yeah, ah yeah.
27:08.18
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
27:21.67
George Barna
And most of our parents in America today. This is talked about in the book when we look at what they’re focused on for their children. Spiritual development is way down the list. A majority of born again Christian parents in America today.
27:33.22
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
27:40.70
George Barna
Don’t even think about spiritual development as one of their top 5 or six emphases that they need to have in raising their children. So what happens the world is raising our children. So when you say how did this happen.
27:47.46
Sandy Cooper
Wow.
27:52.93
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
27:55.12
George Barna
1 of the things that I discovered from our research is who’s having the most influence on our kids and there are about 6 maybe 7 primary influences on our children but far and away the one that has the most influence is the arts and entertainment media.
27:57.85
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
28:11.88
Sandy Cooper
Us.
28:14.38
George Barna
Say wait a minute that’s not even a person. How can they have that influence think about children in America today depending on their age are spending 6 to 12 hours a day absorbing messages from media content.
28:30.45
Sandy Cooper
Yep.
28:31.69
George Barna
I’ve got a chapter in the book where we did a form of research called content analysis What we did is we went through a lot of the most popular media that children are digesting and I’ll just shortcut it here to say they’re not getting a biblical worldview from the stuff that they’re watching and they’re listening to.
28:34.21
Sandy Cooper
Her.
28:40.40
Sandy Cooper
Yeah, hip.
28:48.76
Sandy Cooper
Well, you don’t need to shortcut it. Let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about what kinds of things they are seeing in the media and you know are are you talking Tv are you talking? Youtube are you talking social media like what what did your research reveal and and what.
28:50.96
George Barna
It.
29:06.33
Sandy Cooper
What as moms should we be aware of.
29:07.81
George Barna
Well ok, let let let me answer it this way. What what? our kids are being exposed to isn’t necessarily a conspiracy you know to to destroy their minds. But what they are exposed to.
29:21.34
Sandy Cooper
Um, right.
29:26.70
George Barna
Is a consistent menu. A consistent diet of alternative worldviews and so every television series they watch every social media streaming platform. They utilize has 1 or more.
29:31.95
Sandy Cooper
Right.
29:39.64
Sandy Cooper
Her.
29:44.52
George Barna
Particular worldviews that it pushes and the reason why that’s so effective is because something we discovered about parents right now in America kids don’t trust their parents because.
29:45.34
Sandy Cooper
Right.
29:55.96
Sandy Cooper
Why Why is that.
30:01.16
George Barna
Think about the mindset and the and the life situation of children. They’re trying to figure out how life works and how they’re going to make it in life. How they’re going to be the person they think they want to be they think they’re supposed to be they think they could be and so who do they turn to first their parents.
30:08.58
Sandy Cooper
Um.
30:20.69
George Barna
Because they trust them right out of the gate. Their parents have fed them clothed them housed them taking care of them and so they’ve built this trust. But then as the child gets older. They’re becoming a little more sophisticated and their questions get a little bit deeper and more profound and so.
30:20.98
Sandy Cooper
Ah, her her.
30:30.42
Sandy Cooper
Um, right.
30:36.80
Sandy Cooper
Right.
30:40.48
George Barna
They start asking their parents questions they listen to what their parents say and they take it at face value. But then they watch their parents because they want to see what it looks like this is where we found the disconnect is happening.
30:56.20
Sandy Cooper
Um, oh man.
30:56.23
George Barna
Kids don’t trust their parents because their parents say 1 thing and do another a great example here. We’re talking about media. One of the things that we found was that so many kids said you know my parents told me I shouldn’t watch our rated movies but my parents watch them all the time. So why is it? okay for them and not for me.
31:10.18
Sandy Cooper
Um.
31:16.10
George Barna
If it’s if it’s if it’s bad. Why is it good for them and so it’s these kinds of things and there’s usually a series of those that happen that causes the child to draw the conclusion. Oh my gosh I Guess my parents are just like me. They’re just as confused by life as I am.
31:16.64
Sandy Cooper
Right.
31:33.43
Sandy Cooper
Right.
31:35.45
George Barna
And they’re still trying to figure it out too and I can tell by the disjoint between what they say and what they do there. They don’t have the answers and so I got to go elsewhere So where do they go? Well they go to the place where they actually invest most of their time every day which is the media.
31:42.78
Sandy Cooper
Right.
31:53.34
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? yep.
31:53.42
George Barna
They spend more time with media and than they spend with school. They spend more time with media than they do with family. They spend more time with media than they do with the church so anything else you can name media outplays it Obviously there are some children who are exceptions but I’m talking averages here I’m a sociologist we deal with averages. So.
32:09.27
Sandy Cooper
Um, right right.
32:13.50
George Barna
You know? um so what happens they go to the media because when you lock into a television series or a particular video platform through social media or you listen to today’s contemporary music or you play video games.
32:29.80
Sandy Cooper
Um, for his.
32:31.95
George Barna
Each of those entities in its 3 minute song in its 90 minute movie in its 30 minute streamed you know delivery in the 15 minutes they play the video game. There’s a consistent world view. That’s being taught.
32:38.54
Sandy Cooper
Sure.
32:48.56
George Barna
More than nine out of 10 times at least in the research we’ve done. It is not a biblical worldview. They’re being exposed regularly through that media to marxism to postmodernism to secular humanism eastern mysticism moralistic therapeutic deism those are the big 5
32:56.66
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
33:07.78
George Barna
Ah, so every single day they’re having those worldviews pounded home sometimes hour after hour as they watch these media and then they talk to their friends about these things and that cements it in their minds because their peers have influence too.
33:15.35
Sandy Cooper
First. Her. Right.
33:27.25
George Barna
So this is what we’re dealing with and and so my suggestion I’m sorry I’m long-winded but.
33:30.87
Sandy Cooper
No I Love this, You are it it. You do not need to apologize keep talking. You’re fine.
33:35.80
George Barna
Well oh yeah, let me just wrap up this part of it with in the book I talk about? Okay so what does a parent do about this and as we study. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you know what? what do you do? and as we study the parents who have been effective at this.
33:42.60
Sandy Cooper
Right? Which was going to be my next question. Yes, no, that’s perfect.
33:53.15
Sandy Cooper
Her.
33:55.34
George Barna
We learned a bunch of things and when it comes to media number one. There are probably 4 or 5 things that you’ve got to do one of those is that you’ve got to monitor all of the media that your children are and being exposed to and so you’re saying I can’t do that. Okay.
34:11.26
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
34:15.33
George Barna
Then your children have too much access to media if you can’t even monitor all that they’re exposing themselves to that’s the first problem you got to deal with that means they’ve got too much time there and you are too removed from that vital part of their life.
34:16.36
Sandy Cooper
Right.
34:23.76
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
34:33.55
George Barna
You know one of the things that we learn from these parents is they understand my identity for this phase of my life if not for the rest of my life is I am a parent. You’re not a professional at work. You know you’re You’re not an elder in the church.
34:34.65
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
34:47.90
Sandy Cooper
This this.
34:52.75
George Barna
You’re not you know the the person running the neighborhood watch on your block. No, you are a parent. Why is that your top priority. Why has that become your identity because God gave it to you if he entrusted these children to you. He didn’t do it without any strings attached.
35:12.49
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? yeah.
35:12.85
George Barna
Strings attached here are is he loves them dearly and he entrusted them to you to manage their lives and what that means is that your job is to do everything humanly possible to ensure that they become disciples of Jesus and so.
35:27.60
Sandy Cooper
And when you say it that way we can monitor their media like it just it it like when you say it like that. It’s like well of course I need to monitor what they’re taking in through their eyes and their ears and and it’s becoming in part ingrained in their mind and their heart.
35:32.14
George Barna
Yeah, yeah, if I.
35:44.90
George Barna
Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so second one is minimize how much media they’re being exposed to they’re getting way too much every day.
35:46.86
Sandy Cooper
Because that is my job. That’s my job right? No that makes perfect sense. So we must monitor all the media. What would be the second one.
36:02.76
George Barna
And one of the things that I looked at was some of the neuroresearch the brainwave research that’s become common in the last ten years as the technology has allowed that and what it’s showing is that the more media you ingest the more your your neural. Ah, structure is literally being changed. Your brain process is literally changed by the digestion of the exposure to all of that information through those mechanisms and so it’s it’s not a good thing so you’ve got to minimize it.
36:23.54
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
36:32.65
Sandy Cooper
Yes. Now.
36:41.61
George Barna
You know you you can pick what’s right? but you know 6 8 10 12 hours a day. No way too much half hour day hour a day. Yeah, that’s fine. Why would they need more than that only because you’re not being a family if you’re being a family.
36:47.31
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, yes, right.
36:59.15
George Barna
Then their attention is going to be drawn to the family and not all this other extraneous stuff. Okay, and let me point out here. Also some else we learned from these parents is that when you do this when you monitor their media and then when you minimize it that’s going to raise conflict and.
37:02.14
Sandy Cooper
Right.
37:14.90
Sandy Cooper
Um, yes, every mom is so like I met my brain was doing the exact same thing I’m like yes yes.
37:18.28
George Barna
And a lot of people. Yeah, it’s like oh man I can just hear it now. Yeah, it’s like well you know what? here’s the way you got to be thinking about it you as the parent are a leader.
37:32.54
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
37:34.86
George Barna
I’ve studied leadership in all kinds of organizations government, military business etc for for 40 years and one of the things I discovered is that leaders do a number of things but 1 of the things they all do is they create conflict every single day. How did they create conflict because.
37:42.91
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
37:49.67
Sandy Cooper
This.
37:54.74
George Barna
What a leader does is move toward a vision The vision that defines. Whatever it is that they’re leading in this case, a family and so as you listen to God to understand his vision for your family and you bring that.
37:59.85
Sandy Cooper
Ah, her.
38:02.92
Sandy Cooper
Her hair.
38:13.58
George Barna
Into your household. It’s going to create conflict because there are different visions that have been suggested to your children that are being modeled for your children outside of your household. So when you advance God’s vision.
38:20.56
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, yes.
38:30.98
George Barna
And say no, no, no, you can’t have more media than that here’s the reason why you’re going to create conflict but the other thing that great leaders do is after they create that conflict they deserve. They resolve the conflict based on explaining the vision and not giving in.
38:47.78
Sandy Cooper
Um.
38:49.37
George Barna
See the idea here is you’re the adult in the room act like it take charge the child cannot lead the family your job is to lead the family and so this is one of the ways that you do that is through their media Consumption Media Habits Media patterns.
38:51.10
Sandy Cooper
Right? right. Right? right.
39:07.69
George Barna
All right? So you monitor it you minimize it. Third thing you do is you moralize it? What does that mean it means that not only do you know what? they’re watching you limit what they’re watching listening to whatever but you’re there with them when they’re doing it.
39:09.89
Sandy Cooper
Um, okay.
39:24.42
George Barna
So that you hear and you see what they’re being exposed to and you have the opportunity to talk to them about it now different ways of doing that you know, but at some point you want to bring up to them Hey what did you think about when this character said that.
39:24.51
Sandy Cooper
Um.
39:31.38
Sandy Cooper
Right.
39:40.10
Sandy Cooper
Right.
39:42.20
George Barna
But that character did this to the other character you know does that fit with what we believe you know can you think of any biblical principles or stories or narratives that that you know reflect that approach Those are the kinds of conversations you want to be having about the media that there’s nothing in the bible.
39:57.27
Sandy Cooper
Right.
40:02.00
George Barna
That says you have a right to or a need to be entertained and so you know if your child is getting upset that hey I’m not getting my fair share of entertainment here. Get over son. We’re not here to be entertained. We’re here to know love and serve God with all our heart mind strength and soul.
40:05.16
Sandy Cooper
So.
40:15.19
Sandy Cooper
Um, right.
40:21.57
George Barna
We’re here to be consistently obedient to him. We’re here to know his principles for life and to practice those twenty four seven I mean those are the things that they need to have final thing I’ll I’ll just say on this is in addition that you need to model it and this goes back to what I was saying before where kids don’t trust their parents.
40:24.70
Sandy Cooper
Um.
40:30.30
Sandy Cooper
Um, but okay, right, right.
40:41.78
George Barna
Because we don’t model it we say ah don’t don’t listen to bad music you know and then we listen to bad music. Don’t watch dirty movies then we watch dirty movies. You know the same things we’re going to hold ourself to. We have exactly the same standards as our children do and so there should be no gap between.
40:46.73
Sandy Cooper
Right? right? yeah.
40:57.36
Sandy Cooper
Mate.
41:00.44
George Barna
The lifestyle of us and our children.
41:01.30
Sandy Cooper
Yeah that’s so good. You know I’ll say that you know, ah my kids um but social media and and really the whole technological advancements and all of that was just being rolled out as I was raising my kids and and. And there was no model. There was no model on how to monitor it and um and and I felt like a pioneer in this wilderness I couldn’t ask my parents how they handled it I couldn’t ask older moms how they handled it and so you know we were all just trying to figure it out. And and you know I made a ton of mistakes when my kids were younger gave them way too much access I was trying to do all these things but you know everybody’s got their lines in a different place and their friends are getting to do it this much and you know and it’s just and and the conflict and the pushback. You know it’s all coming and um and so i. I completely can can empathize with every parent right now who is walking through these steps mentally and saying that sounds impossible because I I will just say it’s really really hard. Um. And I will also say on on this podcast. Ah the people who follow this podcast and been listening for a while they know my journey. Um I I got off social media for good in 2021 and as a writer and a podcaster. Um, you know I’m a unicorn like we don’t.
42:35.34
Sandy Cooper
You know you have to have a social media presence if you’re going to make it in the industry and so I’m like forget that and part of the reason why I said forget that is because I’ve got these kids behind me who are watching everything I do and I can’t sit there and say that Instagram.
42:37.24
George Barna
Um, right.
42:52.10
Sandy Cooper
Is causing depression and anxiety in you but hold on let me post this story about this new podcast episode I just you know like it was so inconsistent that I said you know what the being being consistent with my kids. Is more important to me than being impressive to a traditional publisher I’m just not doing it anymore and so so I will say that while I have made a ton of mistakes and I empathize with that. Um. I also know it’s possible to make the hard decisions and do the thing that you feel like you need to do in order to set the example and so um I appreciate you just talking straight about it because I feel like part of the problem is that a bunch of us are dancing around these issues and we’re not We’re not hitting them head on and we’re not saying. You have got to set down the other things you’re doing and spend time with your kids and not I mean and I’m so I’m talking to myself right now I can I can tell you I know my kids who still live in my house 2 of them still live in my home and I know that they consume at least 6 hours a day because I have a little timer that goes off on there and I see it. And it’s like Eliana has reached her limit. So I know for a fact, it’s happening so you know I’m I’m partially um, challenged and excited about what you’re saying and partially feeling a ton of conviction. Sure a bunch of people who are listening are ah are feeling the same way. So.
44:07.95
George Barna
Ah.
44:24.10
Sandy Cooper
Um, so let me let me pivot a little bit here and I want to talk about. You know you’ve mentioned multiple times that that our our goal as Christian parents is to to love and serve god with all of our heart mind soul and strength and that um we are here to. Glorify god we are here to um you know success is measured by obedience to god like you’ve said all all of those things. How do we know as parents.
44:54.38
Sandy Cooper
When when we’re getting it right with our kids like what is the measurement that we can use when we start to see the spiritual maturity develop in our kids. What what would we will look for.
45:03.79
George Barna
Yeah, one of the things that I found the parents who are really effective at this too is they took the time and made the effort to establish what I’ve at least called the non-negotiables the things that if I do this I know.
45:14.98
Sandy Cooper
Okay.
45:21.39
George Barna
We’ve got a high propensity that they’re going to be on the right track. There are no guarantees in parenting but you do the best you can based on the greatest wisdom that you can put together and so establish those non-negotiable beliefs and the related behaviors.
45:25.90
Sandy Cooper
Sure.
45:32.10
Sandy Cooper
Absolutely.
45:40.63
George Barna
And then what you’ve got to do remember Now we’re talking about a shift in how we parent we’re We’re no longer going to outsource. We’re going to be the parent and so we’re going to be spending more time with our children which means I’ll have a greater opportunity to observe.
45:49.52
Sandy Cooper
Earth.
45:58.83
George Barna
What they’re doing in a variety of situations I’ll have a greater opportunity to have dialogue with them and one of the things that I’ve discovered about effective discipleship in America today is that it really is all based on 1 ne-on-one relationships. It’s not based on what groups do It’s not based on what churches do it’s 1 on 1 relationships where a discciple is leading somebody else into a deeper relationship with Christ Disciples make disciples and and the way that that works is through what I’ve called socratic dialogue.
46:18.28
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
46:28.12
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, yes.
46:34.90
Sandy Cooper
Okay.
46:37.49
George Barna
Which is different than what so many people try and fail with which is where I know what the bible says and I’m going to beach over the head with it. What actually seems to work this socratic approach socrates was famous for being a great teacher because he never told his students. What to Think. He knew what he wanted them to think so he just asked the right questions and he’d ask a student. Well, What do you think about this. They’d say something said really, That’s Interesting. So Why do you think this part of it and then they dig deeper into that eventually the student would realize you know what I shouldn’t believe that that’s actually pretty stupid.
46:59.81
Sandy Cooper
Um, ah.
47:06.65
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
47:14.15
George Barna
You know and then they’d move on in their conversation and without socrates ever having to say what you think is stupid the student figure that out or you know they would save face and they’d end the conversation but then they go away and they’d think about it. They come to that same conclusion.
47:22.10
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
47:28.26
Sandy Cooper
Husband.
47:31.86
George Barna
You know? so this is the kind of relationship that we want to establish with our kids where we’re sufficiently in their lives that we know who they’re hanging out with what they’re talking about what they’re watching what they’re hearing what they’re thinking about all of that.
47:35.14
Sandy Cooper
Okay.
47:49.25
George Barna
How they’re trying to translate that into a lifestyle and how all of that does or does not relate to God’s word and so that’s what gives us the opportunity to build that discipling platform that the siplling relationship with our children where that’s our focus.
47:51.70
Sandy Cooper
Well. Right. Yes.
48:08.24
George Barna
It’s not can I get them into Princeton. It’s not you know can I make sure that they get an 800 on the sats. It’s can I do everything possible to make sure that when they go to bed tonight everything that they thought everything they said everything they did honored god and we’re going to fail most days
48:11.30
Sandy Cooper
Um, is me present.
48:25.42
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
48:27.30
George Barna
But with the course of time hopefully will be failing less and less and less and less because it’s an iterative process I’ll also say from our research what we find is that after the age of 13 during our teens and 20 s what happens is kids now at that point have a.
48:36.27
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
48:42.90
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
48:46.00
George Barna
Pretty much a fully developed worldview and so they start hanging around older kids who are more full of themselves and more sure of themselves and they’re challenged a lot and so often Christian kids will stray off the path for a while. But.
48:48.72
Sandy Cooper
Um, this.
48:56.50
Sandy Cooper
Um.
49:02.35
Sandy Cooper
Sure right.
49:05.47
George Barna
You don’t give up. You know you keep being the parent and you keep pointing them in the right direction and that conflict quotient will rise during that period of time get over it. This is part of the job you know, but what we’ve also found is with the kids who had that solid foundation.
49:14.13
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
49:24.85
George Barna
They’re probably going to veer away a little bit. They’re going to explore what the rest of the world is doing and they’re going to realize this is nonsense I’m going back to the stuff that I thought was right originally and you find that they get back on the path. So we’ve just got to be in it for the long haul.
49:27.98
Sandy Cooper
Um.
49:31.61
Sandy Cooper
Right? right.
49:42.97
Sandy Cooper
I’m so glad that you you address that because you had mentioned way at the beginning of our interview that um that the worldview is mostly fully formed by age thirteen and I’m just thinking of all of the moms including myself who have kids who are over 13 and you’re thinking. Oh no, what do I do so so staying um, consistent and staying in it for the long haul and also trusting that the foundation that you have already laid will stand true when they are facing. Opposition and um I think is a great place to start would you add anything or maybe it is the that is the totality of the answer is that what would you say to someone who whose kids are older than 13 and they’re thinking. Oh no, you know what have I screwed it up.
50:29.94
George Barna
Now it. That’s one of the most common questions I get. It’s like oh my goodness I don’t think I did what was right? and now my kids are like past that threshold is there any hope or are they permanently lost. It’s like no no, there’s always hope because of Jesus. So.
50:37.23
Sandy Cooper
Right.
50:45.32
Sandy Cooper
Um, right.
50:48.60
George Barna
What we’ve got to do at that point is say okay, we’re going to be very strategic and intentional now and we’re going to intentionally go into a more intensive one-on-one displedship mode recognizing that it’s going to be twice as hard when you’re working with kids over thirteen.
50:53.89
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
50:58.26
Sandy Cooper
Okay.
51:04.94
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
51:06.86
George Barna
As younger than 13 why? because if you think of a worldview as cement during the first thirteen years we’re poor in this cement we’re shaping this cement. We’re raking the cement and then by the age of 13 doesn’t matter what you do to it because it’s hard.
51:19.73
Sandy Cooper
Um, ah right.
51:23.97
George Barna
Okay, so let’s say now you’ve got a 15 16 17 year old. Oh my gosh I blew it? What do I do this is where the 7 cornerstones come in okay because you’ve got to have a good starting place and that’s an excellent foundation to build First thing you’ve got to do is take each of those.
51:32.40
Sandy Cooper
Um, okay, um.
51:40.69
George Barna
And start chipping away at the existing foundation. It’s like yeah you don’t believe in God Okay, we got to go to cornerstone number one I’ve got to start thinking through how do I communicate to my my son or my daughter. No there is God here’s the evidence here’s my experience here’s things that you’ve experienced that were proved that God exists.
51:42.50
Sandy Cooper
Are.
51:56.62
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
52:00.10
George Barna
You know and just pound in that home as best you can without being obnoxious about it. You know, but recognize. Okay, you know you got to have a Jackhammer and you got to have some new cement ready to pour So it’s twice as much work but it can be done but you’ve got to be willing to put in the work put in the love the energy. The hope the prayer.
52:02.64
Sandy Cooper
Right.
52:09.00
Sandy Cooper
Over.
52:19.89
George Barna
And the biblical truth all of that is part of that.
52:20.35
Sandy Cooper
Um, oh that’s so good. Oh my gosh I Just want to sit and talk to you and have like a personal counseling session. Maybe we can do that later I’ll pay you extra? oh my goodness. Ok um.
52:29.44
George Barna
Ah, sugar Worst thing you can ever do.
52:36.94
Sandy Cooper
Well let me ah but we’re we’re almost to the end of our time here and I want to I want to honor your time other than the fact that you know I really just want to talk to you? Um, but oh my gosh there are so many more questions I want to ask but is there anything else. Dr Barna that we um that we didn’t talk about that. You.
52:45.56
George Barna
Um.
52:54.87
Sandy Cooper
Want to make sure that we cover before we get to the last 2 questions that I ask everyone.
52:58.28
George Barna
You know, let let me just quickly put this in this is in the book. So they’ll see it there but but I want to highlight it and that’s that so many parents I found out. Don’t know what a disciple is that.
53:02.50
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
53:08.93
Sandy Cooper
Yes, let’s talk about that. Yes.
53:12.34
George Barna
Yeah I mean they think that oh my child’s a disciple he goes to church you know once twice maybe 3 times a month you know my my child is a disciple he goes to a christian school my child you know they they got all these ideas you know he’s raised in a Christian Home america’s a Christian nation of course he’s it. It’s like no, let’s go back to Jesus.
53:22.52
Sandy Cooper
Ah.
53:29.52
Sandy Cooper
Um, okay.
53:30.53
George Barna
And see what Jesus said a disciple is and there are 6 times in the scriptures when Jesus said 3 times you will be my disciple if and then 3 times where he said you cannot be my disciple unless and so we go to Luke chapter 143 statement series says you cannot be my disciple unless.
53:41.41
Sandy Cooper
Okay.
53:50.28
George Barna
First of all, you love god so much. It seems like you hate everything and everybody else in comparison. That’s how deep and intense your love has to be of god who big big call. Yeah, that’s a biggie. Okay, but what a great starting place. Second thing you said is you cannot be my disciple.
53:55.68
Sandy Cooper
Um, right? That’s that’s a big call.
54:08.54
George Barna
Unless you pick up your cross and carry it now in roman society what that meant is unless you recognize the prevailing authority which was you know Rome and for us as followers of god it means you cannot be my disciple in this you recognize that god.
54:21.22
Sandy Cooper
Um, okay.
54:27.84
George Barna
And god alone is in charge. It’s not the emperor of Rome it’s god yeah, or the president or you know whoever else people follow in this country Third thing that Jesus talked about then at the end of chapter 14 of Luke he said and you cannot be my disciple unless you surrender everything.
54:33.31
Sandy Cooper
Um, right right.
54:47.72
George Barna
To be part of my kingdom. In other words, it’s not your agenda that matters empty your mind and your heart of your agenda figure out who I am or what I’m calling you to do how I’ve gifted you to pursue that calling and devote your life to doing that and then in John.
54:50.31
Sandy Cooper
Right.
55:06.30
George Barna
He took the opposite approach in that conversation that he was having with the disciples and in John eight he said you know what? you ah will be my disciples if you obey all of my teachings. Okay, so it comes back to that. What is success consistent obedience to god.
55:18.60
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah, right.
55:25.00
George Barna
In John thirteen he said you will be my disciples if you love 1 another talking about you know, love the other disciples. You’re a community of faith. That’s what the church is and then in John fifteen you said you will be my disciples if you produce a lot of spiritual fruit.
55:31.61
Sandy Cooper
Right.
55:43.80
George Barna
And so what is that that means you become a disciple and then you devote your life to making other disciples. So that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about trying to make your kids disciples. You know they got to love God They got to surrender to his authority. They got to give up everything they have to be a discciple they got to.
55:43.20
Sandy Cooper
Um.
55:47.81
Sandy Cooper
Yes.
55:53.50
Sandy Cooper
This.
56:02.84
George Barna
Prove it by the way that they love the church. The other disciples who they’re working alongside of trying to raise up a nation of disciples producing that kind of fruit because we follow God’s word. So that’s what a disciple is.
56:05.60
Sandy Cooper
I.
56:17.85
Sandy Cooper
Wow. Well thank you for um, thank you for for for laying that out for us for pointing to all those scriptural references. Um. And I know it’s all in your book the book by the way is available on Amazon I’m going to make sure we have a link to that in the show notes I I encourage everyone who’s listening to please go get a copy. You will not be sorry you this is not light nighttime reading.
56:39.41
George Barna
Okay, very good.
56:41.58
Sandy Cooper
Which I tried to do and I can tell you you will want a highlighter in hand and um, you probably want to do it if you’re married with your spouse and then you will um yes, it starts out very discouraging because you lay out a lot of very ah, frustrating and shocking statistics based on all your research, but then. You know, just as you did in this podcast episode you you lay out a really great. Um, plan for for ah building this biblical worldview in our kids so that we really can um, have success in this area and I just. I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to come and speak to my audience today. Um, so I just before before we wrap up. There are 2 questions that I ask every guest and on the balanced mom cast. We talk a lot about um our to don’t list. And these are things that we prayerfully neglect for the sake of balance and it might be something big like I’m not on social media. It might be something small like I don’t weed my flower beds and it shows. Um, it might be something temporary. It might be something that you’ve laid down forever but I would imagine with everything you’ve got on your plate you have. You prayerfully neglect some things for the sake of balance and I’m just curious George what is something that is currently on your to don’t list.
58:03.30
George Barna
Well there there are quite a few things actually but and and it’s mostly in relation to my grandkids who I’m trying to invest as much time and as I can and and so for me a lot of that is as as you can see because we can see each other as we’re doing in my room here.
58:08.28
Sandy Cooper
Oh nice.
58:17.48
Sandy Cooper
Yes I do I was going to ask about those guitars I was very intrigued. Yeah.
58:21.18
George Barna
I’ve got a lot of guitars on the wall. Yeah I Love music I Love playing music. Um, but you know what being a parent or even a grandparent is a season of sacrifice and so.
58:36.73
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
58:38.87
George Barna
You know whereas I might love to spend my 4 hours Saturday not at my grandson’s ball game or you know spending 2 hours at the pool with our 3 grandchildren you know I’d rather be here playing music in some ways. But ultimately I know god’s not going to judge me based on whether or not i.
58:56.86
Sandy Cooper
This right.
58:57.59
George Barna
Played the right notes. He’s going to judge me based on what did you do with the lives of those children so there is just a lot of ah you know a lot of sacrifice involved in being a parent or a grandparent or anyone who wants to influence children.
59:11.85
Sandy Cooper
Yeah, oh that’s good that’s good I think a lot of people right now are trying to think of metaphorically what is their music and their guitar playing and they’re thinking maybe god’s asking me to set that aside. So thank you for that. Now as as we wrap up and as we close um you are speaking to moms who are probably feeling very overwhelmed with the task at hand. Um, they are wanting to impart a biblical worldview to their kids they want to combat the media they want to disciple their children. Ah, but they they are just like oh my gosh this is huge so as we close Dr Barnett can you you please speak directly to that mom. What would you say to encourage her.
59:50.68
George Barna
Yeah praise god that you have that child and that you care enough to be listening to a podcast like this to potentially read a book like mine because you love your children so much you love god so much you’re you’re so. Interested in being the best disciple of Jesus that you can that you want to know these things you want to do these things so don’t get discouraged. It’s a tough road you know and every day in american culture. It just gets tougher but you and I and Sandy and people like us are here because. We’re supposed to be the difference in the culture. We’re agents of transformation for this moment in the nation’s history and the way right now that you can have the greatest impact on the future of the country is by raising your children to be disciples of Jesus.
01:00:45.74
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
01:00:47.90
George Barna
But we’re not going to turn America around overnight. It’s going to be a forty fifty 60 year turnaround process. We’ve dug ourselves a hole that deep but the only way that we change it is by returning to god and the only way that consistently happens is by raising up our children to have that kind of a commitment. So you know, just recognize that what you do with your children in terms of raising them to be disciples is cumulative. It’s not like okay I put it in a minute today I get a minute back. You know I’m going to see it immediately. Not probably not. You may not see it for weeks months years maybe decades.
01:01:14.25
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
01:01:27.37
George Barna
But you will see it it. It will come back at some point and so make that investment recognize. It’s nobody’s job but yours so being committed to it. It’s going to be tough but stick with it and know that you know when the bible talks about Jewels in your crown and how you reward it in heaven.
01:01:27.40
Sandy Cooper
Um.
01:01:35.66
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
01:01:47.37
George Barna
This is what you get rewarded for. It’s how you raise your children. It’s not you know how many nice words did you say to other people today I mean that’s good, but but that I believe in god’s economy is going to pale in comparison to but did you make a disciple of the child that I entrusted to you.
01:01:50.22
Sandy Cooper
Yeah.
01:02:07.20
Sandy Cooper
Um, yeah.
01:02:07.23
George Barna
You can do this. There are some simple things you can do. There’s some hard things you’re going to have to do do it all, but just be committed to it.
01:02:14.64
Sandy Cooper
Yes, oh that was so good so much. Ah, you, you just have given us so much to think about so much to pray about so much to consider I appreciate the time that you’ve given to my listeners today. Everyone please go out and buy. Dr. Barna’s book. It is again called raising spiritual champions nurturing your child’s heart mind and soul and it is available on Amazon. Thank you so much. Dr Barna for your time today.
01:02:37.62
George Barna
Oh thanks for having me I appreciate it.